andykara2003
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:12 am

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:53 am

Again, I think you're right! Or at least that the frame rates are very similar. This is really interesting as I've didn't know that there were any N64 games that ran in true 288p with a comparable framerate to their NTSC counterparts. From your observations it sounds like the PAL version of Perfect dark does this as well (I didn't test it), but I wonder if there are more? I don't think this information is out there but it would be very interesting to know.

I did compare visually compare before, but the frame rates are pretty inconsistent in the area of testing (beginning of dam level) and I didn't check it thoroughly enough. You're right, the best way to test it would be using a frame rate analyzer like Digital foundry uses - but there's another way that's good enough to get the general picture:

I just ran the PAL and NTSC versions in the Project 64 emulator with Fraps on to get the framerate readout at all times. The emulator runs at the same frame rates as the console so you get a good general idea. I went to a couple of different places on the map and the frame rates were very very close in both areas when moving, turning the camera etc.

Diddy kong racing was different - I went on the first track and the NTSC version is generally locked at 30FPS and the PAL at 25FPS. Like I say, It would be great to hear if anyone knows if there are any other PAL games running at true 288p with framerates similar to the NTSC version of the same game. Perhaps Marshall would know?.

radorn
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:35 am

The emulator runs at the same frame rates as the console so you get a good general idea.
I haven't used PJ64 or any emulator in ages, but I'd say that they actually get some better FPS performance than hardware.
Don't take my word for it, but I think N64 emulators in general don't really perform the same as original hardware, but they usually perform faster unless there's something particularly intensive to emulate bogging it down.

Maybe these newer low-level emus do, but, the classic HLE ones, not really.

Anyway... yes, for games that lock down the max fps there's not much to do, but GE (and PD?) seem to be able to even match the display's refresh for extremely simple scenes... like, no gun drawn and looking into a wall xD.

andykara2003
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:12 am

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:09 am

If I remember correctly the emulator does run at normal speed - I might be wrong though. Theres a 60Hz tweak for Goldeneye and some other games that aren't frame rate locked. You can also switch off the frame rate limiter but that just runs the whole thing as fast as your PC can handle it - the game doesn't run at normal speed with a better framerate, the whole game speeds up.


I'll do some asking around and get back here..

radorn
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:48 am

It's entirely possible that I'm talking out of my ass here, but:

From listening to the experts in the matter, the N64 seems to be mainly bottlenecked at the RCP, which has to deal with all the data buses on the system (cart, RAM, CPU), and then the RDRAM's high latency.

In emulation, specially if we are talking HLE, some of these things don't apply as much as they do on hardware or accurate LLE.
My supposition is that, thanks to high level emulation of the DSP and RDP, frames can potentially be drawn faster and the HLE'd RCP just reports to the CPU "I'm done, just send me the next displaylist". If the engine of a particular game is made so that it will try to feed the RCP with as much frame data as it can chew, then you can get performance surpassing the original hardware.

andykara2003
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:12 am

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:09 am

I agree - after a bit of research I think you're absolutely in right that Project 64's frame rate can't be relied on to match the real hardware. Although we both observed by eye that the PAL version of Goldeneye doesn't appear to be slower it would be good to know more precisely. As you say, I guess a frame counter would be needed which I don't have access to. I would be interested in:

1: Which PAL games run in 288p and run at the same speed with comparable frame rates to their NTSC variants.

2: Which PAL games run at the same speed with comparable frame rates to their NTSC variants but are scaled up from 240p or other lower resolutions.

I'm interested in the latter as well because PAL variants have a less scanlined look on a CRT. I don't mind 2D games with more prominent scanlines but I prefer the smoother, less scanlined look for some N64 games, even if they're scaled - but at the same time wouldn't want to sacrifice frame rate or game speed.


I don't know how much more I could contribute as I don't know much more, but would be really interested to hear any more of your or anyone else's findings on this..

radorn
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:45 pm

I'm afraid I don't have much more to contribute.
I already checked all other RAREWARE games and other PAL releases that I thought had chances of doing 288p, and only found these.
There may be some other oddball ROM arround that does something interesting in terms of video modes, but, sadly, I don't think I'm going to have much chance of ilooking into it anymore.

My life is getting tough right now.

andykara2003
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:12 am

Re: Rareware games on the N64: NTSC vs. PAL

Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:35 pm

No worries & sorry to hear that - hope things get easier for you soon :(

If anyone else knows of any more I'll be interested but for now I'll say thanks very much for your insights - I've deserted my NTSC Goldeneye save and started again in PAL to appreciate the game in a new way.

Cheers :)

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